Shot Calling as a Learning tool

[skip]

Call your Shot.....

When I was younger (much younger than today) I was involved mainly in rifle competition, and mostly used my bow to harass frogs and squirrels around the farm. The structured development of that shooting sport (Rifle) allowed me the opportunity to bring some fundamental coaching lessons learned into archery some 35 years later. One of the skills we worked on was shot calling, and that is just basically trying to develop the ability to create a mental snapshot of your sight picture when your Bow fires. At first you will have to remember to do it, but eventually it will become second nature. Every Rifle Coach I ever had taught shot-calling and we even kept a log of our shot-calls and compared them to actual hits while practicing. I have always found this as a usefull tool for me to isolate whats going on/wrong with either me or equipment. If I am feeling like my pin is in the X or in a particular area for multiple shots, and I get to the target and it doesnt match, then there is something happening, if you feel that your arrows dont match your call , and you are being honest with yourself, then you might want to look at setup or tuning...

Admit to yourself when you get a better hit than you deserved, and when you missed with a good sight picture because you made a bad or weak shot. Honesty with yourself is a great thing :)

Skip

[Tejas Raz]

So TRUE! Without honestly having the ability to "Call" your shot, you have no real way to improve your shooting. Every single time that my shooting has dropped, I can say that I had stopped Calling the shots. The Marine Corps is religious about calling shots and recording them to keep track of your shooting and condition trends that you would never see otherwise. Applies to any kind of shooting as I see it!

[GlowbugAng]

Here's my problem with being able to do this... not sure if it's good or bad. Guess it depends on where the arrow lands?

I only use my circle (or pin) as a beginnning reference point. As I actually "come on" target, I just try to let my aiming device just blur out as I focus on my X or spot on my animal. So, to be honest, I'm not really always aware of where my aiming device is sitting. Now... I am very aware of a bad shot. Seems I can call those better than the good ones.

Is it more important that I can call a good shot over a bad shot?

[Tejas Raz]

The biggest thing (imo) about calling shots is that... you can't call a shot unless your eyes are OPEN and FOCUSED. This is also a great tool for those who have target panic problems. When you can keep focused through the entire sighting system, through the shot, calling is a done deal because you have seen the entire sequence good shot, or bad shot. And that is the point of calling, seeing the bad shots and knowing what YOU have done to make it go off target. Also, knowing what YOU have done when the good ones zone in there. It lets you seriously critique each and every shot.

That help any Bug?

[GlowbugAng]

Well.... after having a crappy night at league... i got a huge lesson in aiming, sight picture, all this stuff.

At the beginning of the night i couldn't stay out of the 7's and 6's (yes.. on a single spot target)... by the end of the night... was shooting 10's.

We've pretty much determined that yes.. i have the dreaded TP syndrome :(

looks like some practice time for the Glowbug

and ty for your response Tejas

[shootsahoyt]

When I'm shooting I usually am talking to myself. (Go ahead Raz, insert joke here! :)) I'll say something like, "well that shot was low. That shot was right. Then I'll look thru my binos to confirm it. Is this what you're talking about?

[shootsahoyt]

my question would be....


If you know the shot wasn't going in the middle, why did you shoot it? :eek:


If we had that answer then nobody would miss and I'd win a million dollars from the NFAA next year! :new_rofl:

[Walleye Joe]

When I'm shooting I usually am talking to myself. (Go ahead Raz, insert joke here! :)) I'll say something like, "well that shot was low. That shot was right. Then I'll look thru my binos to confirm it. Is this what you're talking about?

That's kinda how I practice, except instead of talking, I'm thinking to myself. :p

[shootsahoyt]

teach yourself to not shoot them...

It's not like I'm shooting 5' off to the left, Javi. For Example, the other night I was shooting at 50 yards, shooting at a 50 cent piece size dot. If I missed that dot (just outside), I could pretty much tell you where the arrow was. Once you're lost in an aim and committed to a shot, sometimes concentration is lost for a brief second and a shot goes off. There is not a pro in the world that that doesn't happen to.
What I need to work on is aiming drill and executing a perfect shot everytime and everything else will fall into place. ;)

[Javelina]

It's not like I'm shooting 5' off to the left, Javi. For Example, the other night I was shooting at 50 yards, shooting at a 50 cent piece size dot. If I missed that dot (just outside), I could pretty much tell you where the arrow was. Once you're lost in an aim and committed to a shot, sometimes concentration is lost for a brief second and a shot goes off. There is not a pro in the world that that doesn't happen to.
What I need to work on is aiming drill and executing a perfect shot everytime and everything else will fall into place. ;)Most pros work exceeding hard to train themselves to let down if their concentration is broken. No one can do it every time but believe me they never stop working on that aspect. It's called the mental side of archery... Learning to focus and aim is great, but learning to never shoot a bad shot is even better....

[shootsahoyt]

Most pros work exceeding hard to train themselves to let down if their concentration is broken. No one can do it every time but believe me they never stop working on that aspect. It's called the mental side of archery... Learning to focus and aim is great, but learning to never shoot a bad shot is even better....

I agree completely, Javi. Some great books out there on this is, of course, "With Winning in Mind" by Lanny Basham, "The Mental Game of Baseball" (yes I know it's baseball, but baseball players go thru the exact same thing that archers do!) and "Mind Gym" by Gary Mack. Mack is a sports psychologist for Many Major League Baseball, Pro Football, and Hockey teams as well as working with other occupations such as firefighters. It is a very easy read and, at this time anyway, is my favorite of the three.

[Javelina]

I agree completely, Javi. Some great books out there on this is, of course, "With Winning in Mind" by Lanny Basham, "The Mental Game of Baseball" (yes I know it's baseball, but baseball players go thru the exact same thing that archers do!) and "Mind Gym" by Gary Mack. Mack is a sports psychologist for Many Major League Baseball, Pro Football, and Hockey teams as well as working with other occupations such as firefighters. It is a very easy read and, at this time anyway, is my favorite of the three.

The folks I coach spend equal time working on the mental game as they do shooting. Being able to rehearse the shot with visualization is a very important aspect of shooting a prefect shot. But even more important is learning to win...

[ldfalks]

teach yourself to not shoot them...

Unfortunatly, Mike, if that was possible you would have quit shooting long ago. Very rarely do we see perfect shots. We see good execution and some good landings, but seldom together.

If an archer is honest about their ability and accepts that they aren't perfect and that they can only shoot a certain size group at a given distance they will be more relaxed and focuse on the process of shooting rather than fruitless aiming.

If an archer is concentrating on the shot and is the least bit self-aware he/she should be able to tell you where the pin, circle, aperture, etc. was in relation to the intended point of strike at the time of the release of the arrow.

I think you threw up some excellent postage there Skipster.

You shoot the best shots that you are capable of executing. You don't wait to shoot until you have the perfect shot happening. If the latter were the case we would either be on the field much longer or less shots would go down range.

[RobertM]

There's great info in this post.

[Tejas Raz]

I think you're both right!

We TRY to shoot every shot perfect. However, when you KNOW the shot feels wrong, it's time to let down.

On the other hand, holding out for the "perfect" shot and not shooting until you have it is flawed thinking which leads to target panic et al. Accepting our own personal "best", that is as long as it is within a "cone" of what we're "able" to shoot and accept , at that time in our development and letting the shot go then, is correct and will advance us quicker. We still have to know when to let down.

This sound appropriate? Or just tell me I'm all washed up!

[Walleye Joe]

When you KNOW the shot feels good, it's time to let down.


:( ??? :5blindfold:

Is this what you really meant to say Scott :confused:

I usually let down when I KNOW the shot does not feel right.

[Tejas Raz]

Thanks Joe! Lemme go back and edit that.

[ldfalks]

We TRY to shoot every shot perfect. However, when you KNOW the --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
shot feels wrong, it's time to let down.

On the other hand, holding out for the "perfect" shot and not shooting until you have it is flawed thinking which leads to target panic et al. Accepting our own personal "best", that is as long as it is within a "cone" of what we're "able" to shoot and accept , at that time in our development and letting the shot go then, is correct and will advance us quicker. We still have to know when to let down.

This sound appropriate? Or just tell me I'm all washed up![/quote]

This is my point. There is so much time to make a shot in competition. We should make the best shot that we can. We have to know how well we can shoot to make the best shot we can make. Sometimes you will have to make a shot even though it isn't the best you could have made if you had unlimited time and let-downs. Even in field archery where there isn't a clock on a field round you only get 3 let-downs. You have to make a shot at some point even if you're as screwed up as a soup sandwich.

You should teach students to shoot while concentrating on form and process and deemphasize the aiming. If you perfect the form and process you increase the successes (good landings). If you concentrate on aiming, anything you do to begin the release activation will spoil the aim and lead to excessive let-downs, punched shots, and the onset of target panic.

Archery should be a process-oriented activity, not a result-oriented event. You should be able to take a mental snap-shot of where the pin was at the instant of release. This doesn't mean that you set out to make a bad shot. It means you know where the arrow is going to hit when you have made the best shot that you could.

All platitudes and pontifications aside, to tell someone to never shoot until the shot is perfect is just out of touch with modern techniques and reality. There are techniques that we, as coaches, can use to help our archers make shots that are closer to perfect as they gain experience and they may make a few perfect shots along the way, but they can't sit there and wait for the perfect shot every time. They must execute shots that are as good as they can make given the conditions.

The point of this thread was to answer whether or not we thought that being able to call shots by remembering where the pin was it time of release was a valuable and viable training tool. I say yes it is.

I ask my students where the pin was when the shot broke. They're not afraid to tell me the truth because they know that I will show them a technique that will help them make a better shot and keep the pin closer to the point of aim. If they are afraid to tell the coach where the pin was because he'll berate them for making a shot that wasn't perfect, they'll just lie and start blaming the equipment, environment or space aliens for their own shortcomings. How many times have you heard, "I don't know how that arrow got down there. The pin was dead in the middle of the X when it went off." When I hear that the first thing that runs through my mind is, "look for a chair to stand on cause it's starting to get deep".

[AdminS]

Lets not continue to muddy my thread, My point and technique is tried and true and has been the basis for shot training over multiple disciplines, archery, rifle, probably 155 howitzer as well. You hold and execute the best shot you can, and understanding that its not always going to break in the middle of the middle of the middle, is part of that. Understanding that point helps you develop a smooth comfortable shot, instead of an "its PERFECT NOW, shoot thought process. Mental pressure to only execute a shot when its dead x on, IMHO, causes trouble with anxeity down the road. DIscuss principles realted to the topic, and dont hijack my thread with personal attacks.

[Javelina]

Knowing the aim was six inches out of the gold when the shot broke, just tells you the shot process broke down somewhere along the way. Training one’ self not to shoot when the process has broken down does not reinforce bad habits. Whether the breakdown occurred in the physical form of the shot or in the mental focus; to shoot that shot will only promote more of the same. Learning what a good shot feels and looks like and then working through training to perfect the process is not incorrect.
As for a student of mine telling me that they were looking at the pin or dot when the shot broke, I hear that frequently until they eventually learn to focus on the spot they want to hit and let the pin float.

[AdminS]

I agreee, The only difference we have it that Im not talking about unacceptable shots. having your pin on the 3 ring and letting it go isnt acceptable, but having your pin, scope, haors in the bull and feeling that at the moment the shot broke it was low left in the bull acknowledges that you are aware of every aspect of your shot, and understand that during your shot your pin drifted. if you havent got a clue where your pin was at that precise moment, how do you diagnose the shot? If you know if was in the middle of the middle, and you arrow is low left, might be an equipment, tuning issue, if you now where it was, and it hit behind the pin, your diagnosis needs to start with you, not your gear :)

[ldfalks]

Knowing the aim was six inches out of the gold when the shot broke, just tells you the shot process broke down somewhere along the way. Training one’ self not to shoot when the process has broken down does not reinforce bad habits. Whether the breakdown occurred in the physical form of the shot or in the mental focus; to shoot that shot will only promote more of the same. Learning what a good shot feels and looks like and then working through training to perfect the process is not incorrect.
As for a student of mine telling me that they were looking at the pin or dot when the shot broke, I hear that frequently until they eventually learn to focus on the spot they want to hit and let the pin float.

I had the good fortune to watch the 2008 US Olympic Archery Team shooting the Team Rounds in Atalya Turkey (on video BTW). In the team round each archer has to shoot 2 arrows and rotate off the line. There is 2 min total to complete the 6 team arrows. That's 20 sec per arrow (just so you don't have to do the math). Your arrow can't clear leather until you're straddle of the line. You shoot 4 ends of 6 per round. The clock starts and runs to 2 min and the horn goes off. Points in the quiver stay there. How many times can you let down in 20 sec and your team still have time to shoot?

I watched Vic let down 3 times on one arrow (it took him 50 sec to shoot that 1 arrow leaving 1:10 for the remaining 5 team arrows) and at least once on every other arrow except one. Brady never let down and only shot 10's and a couple of 9's and most of the time he was loading and shooting in 10 sec or less because Vic and Butch were so slow. There was one time when Brady came to the line with 7 sec on the clock and got his arrow off and put it in the 10.

We (all the RA's, Dream Team and the students that I coach) play a game called the gold game. You set the clock at a reasonable time (15 sec for recurve an 20 sec for compound with an arrow nocked and bow lowered) and you shoot arrow after arrow, as best as you can, within the time. You give the archer time to reload before starting the clock again. The game gets played at the 2nd longest distance for recurve and olympic compound and the max yardage for 3D (for 3D you use an animal and cound the 10 as Gold) You get a point for the Gold, no points for red and -1 for anything Blue or further out. You get -2 for not shooting in the time allowed. You can start with the end at 10 points or some other reasonable number and then work up from there.The point is to focus on the process and not on aiming. Aiming will come with the process and so will the points.

Vic didn't make the cut to the top 64 in Turkey because he let down so much he left points in his quiver. Jacob Wukie, 4th on the team and another Resident Athete, placed 14th overall, Butch placed WAY down the pack, Vic watched from the bleachers while Brady won Gold. This isn't about snap-shooting, it's about being in control, perfecting a process, executing in the time allowed and knowing where it's going when it's on the way.

So, once again, I agree with Skip that being able to take a mental snapshot of where the pin, dot, aperture or crosshairs are on the target at time of execution is a good thing.

OH, BTW, maybe concentrating on the pin isn't a bad thing. That's how Chance shoots. He focuses on the pin instead of the target. Think about that one for a while....

I apologize for clouding your thread Skip, but the Earth really is round and we should explore it while we have the chance.

[uno]

I love this shot calling. Shot about 30 arrows today and called most of my shots. I seemed to have tighter groupings, don't know why but I know that I went out and shot shortly after reading Skips post. Thanks Skip!