Oldaro
05-19-2005, 07:22 AM
There is an interesting thread in the General Archery section titled Shoot from the Valley or Pull Hard Against the Wall? by Panzer, regarding the dilemma of end-of-draw positions when shooting bows with let-offs in long power "valleys" or having gradually hardening "walls" after those. We thought it might be of interest to read about it here, too:
*****
I had to pull duty for an hour last night from 1-2 AM, and in an attempt to make myself a little smarter, not to mention stay awake, I was reading "Tuning Your Compound Bow" by Larry Wise.* One point he felt was so important that it deserved a chapter of it's own was the benefits of shooting from the valley.*
His point is that as you pull past the valley the draw weight increases as you start back up the draw-force curve.* Since you can't pull the same consistently every time, the arrow is starting off with a different am out of initial thrust each time.* He also states the the draw weight drops as the arrow comes down off the wall into the valley, then increases again on the front slope of the curve and this can cause arrow flight problems.
Shooting from the middle of the valley eliminates this, plus gives you a little wiggle room before the DW starts to rise dramatically again.
I've heard a lot of guys talking about pulling against the wall when using backtension, but that seems like it may not be the best idea.
Thoughts?
*
Was he talking about two cam bows, hybrids or all bows. I ask because few single cam bows have a soft wall and a long valley. But I would agree if you have a soft wall, as most two cams and hybrids do,* it's better not to pull hard against it, you will experience inconsistencies. This is one reason I quit shooting a hybrid system. The harder I pulled the longer the draw got, it reminded me of a Genesis bow.* * *
Now on my single cam it has a rock solid wall and I don't see how you could shoot it without being against the wall unless you creep and then* you have the same situation, if the bow doesn't jerk it out of your hand.
I definitely won't argue with Larry Wise but here is what I do: long valley, soft wall, shoot from valley. Short valley hard wall shoot against wall. Of course I am not a master coach neither.
*
He was talking about all bows, but he seems to feel that the problem is more pronounced with bows having a short valley and solid wall, since the draw weight increases much faster.*
He noted that once you hit the wall your draw doesn't stop, the cams just aren't helping anymore and your muscle force is going straight to the limbs, the same as if it was a recurve.* Since the compounds limbs are much stiffer than a recurves, you don't have enough strength to continue the draw stroke, giving the appearance of a solid stop.
I'll agree with you on the hybrids though.* My first bow had wheels so the cam .5s wall felt rock solid compared to what I was used to, until I started shooting a single cam.*
My Pro 40 Dually's wall is solid too, with a very short valley.* God help you if you creep even the slightest bit.
*
Larry was, and is correct in his theory regarding inconsistancy due to drawing hard into the wall.
However, Larry wrote his excellent book before the modern cam designs most prevelant today were introduced.
Many of todays cams, either single, twin, or hybrid have an exceptionally big "wall" to pull into, making it easier to maintain a consistant draw into the back wall without overdoing it.
It is not easy at all, actually pretty near impossible IMO, to correctly shoot true backtension from the valley of the draw cycle.
Luckily for me, most bows made today don`t really have much if any valley to deal with. *
*
I believe that book was written before the advent of today's more advanced bows... If you read Core Archery it will clarify several points that were valid at the time Tuning your Compound Bow was written, but have passed into yesteryear along with wire cables and 6 cam bows...
*
I didn't take into account the age of the book.* I guess there has been an advancement or two since it was written.
*
I'd suggest that if you're not sure as to whether to shoot from the valley or off the wall, please look at your cam system and try to envisage making an "artificial wall". These are usually in form of a screw and buttonlike nut that stop the cam at a certain point, by touching either the cable or the bowstring. There is another possible solution where one simple Saunders metal nock is pressed at the (served) place on the string just where it enters the idler rut. It gives sufficient reference signal to the shooter where to stop drawing.
Artificial wall is nice to have if the characteristic force curve of your cam creates soft walls / long valleys, where you can't be sure if you're always in the same place. My BlackMax II exerts full force from its 5.5" brace height all the way to about the last inch of the draw. Then the force drops to 60% and at the bottom of that... *not valley... it's more of a gorge... there's the cliff-hard wall. I have to lean into the wall lest I creeped just this bit, and the bow starts to draw wildly forward.
I like to fight against this animal; someone else might find it too wild and demanding. Anyway, artificial draw stops in cases opposite to this one are not uncommon, and the feeling of one exact point of stop is nice.
Much nicer than zig-zagging inside a valley, at least to me.
*****
I had to pull duty for an hour last night from 1-2 AM, and in an attempt to make myself a little smarter, not to mention stay awake, I was reading "Tuning Your Compound Bow" by Larry Wise.* One point he felt was so important that it deserved a chapter of it's own was the benefits of shooting from the valley.*
His point is that as you pull past the valley the draw weight increases as you start back up the draw-force curve.* Since you can't pull the same consistently every time, the arrow is starting off with a different am out of initial thrust each time.* He also states the the draw weight drops as the arrow comes down off the wall into the valley, then increases again on the front slope of the curve and this can cause arrow flight problems.
Shooting from the middle of the valley eliminates this, plus gives you a little wiggle room before the DW starts to rise dramatically again.
I've heard a lot of guys talking about pulling against the wall when using backtension, but that seems like it may not be the best idea.
Thoughts?
*
Was he talking about two cam bows, hybrids or all bows. I ask because few single cam bows have a soft wall and a long valley. But I would agree if you have a soft wall, as most two cams and hybrids do,* it's better not to pull hard against it, you will experience inconsistencies. This is one reason I quit shooting a hybrid system. The harder I pulled the longer the draw got, it reminded me of a Genesis bow.* * *
Now on my single cam it has a rock solid wall and I don't see how you could shoot it without being against the wall unless you creep and then* you have the same situation, if the bow doesn't jerk it out of your hand.
I definitely won't argue with Larry Wise but here is what I do: long valley, soft wall, shoot from valley. Short valley hard wall shoot against wall. Of course I am not a master coach neither.
*
He was talking about all bows, but he seems to feel that the problem is more pronounced with bows having a short valley and solid wall, since the draw weight increases much faster.*
He noted that once you hit the wall your draw doesn't stop, the cams just aren't helping anymore and your muscle force is going straight to the limbs, the same as if it was a recurve.* Since the compounds limbs are much stiffer than a recurves, you don't have enough strength to continue the draw stroke, giving the appearance of a solid stop.
I'll agree with you on the hybrids though.* My first bow had wheels so the cam .5s wall felt rock solid compared to what I was used to, until I started shooting a single cam.*
My Pro 40 Dually's wall is solid too, with a very short valley.* God help you if you creep even the slightest bit.
*
Larry was, and is correct in his theory regarding inconsistancy due to drawing hard into the wall.
However, Larry wrote his excellent book before the modern cam designs most prevelant today were introduced.
Many of todays cams, either single, twin, or hybrid have an exceptionally big "wall" to pull into, making it easier to maintain a consistant draw into the back wall without overdoing it.
It is not easy at all, actually pretty near impossible IMO, to correctly shoot true backtension from the valley of the draw cycle.
Luckily for me, most bows made today don`t really have much if any valley to deal with. *
*
I believe that book was written before the advent of today's more advanced bows... If you read Core Archery it will clarify several points that were valid at the time Tuning your Compound Bow was written, but have passed into yesteryear along with wire cables and 6 cam bows...
*
I didn't take into account the age of the book.* I guess there has been an advancement or two since it was written.
*
I'd suggest that if you're not sure as to whether to shoot from the valley or off the wall, please look at your cam system and try to envisage making an "artificial wall". These are usually in form of a screw and buttonlike nut that stop the cam at a certain point, by touching either the cable or the bowstring. There is another possible solution where one simple Saunders metal nock is pressed at the (served) place on the string just where it enters the idler rut. It gives sufficient reference signal to the shooter where to stop drawing.
Artificial wall is nice to have if the characteristic force curve of your cam creates soft walls / long valleys, where you can't be sure if you're always in the same place. My BlackMax II exerts full force from its 5.5" brace height all the way to about the last inch of the draw. Then the force drops to 60% and at the bottom of that... *not valley... it's more of a gorge... there's the cliff-hard wall. I have to lean into the wall lest I creeped just this bit, and the bow starts to draw wildly forward.
I like to fight against this animal; someone else might find it too wild and demanding. Anyway, artificial draw stops in cases opposite to this one are not uncommon, and the feeling of one exact point of stop is nice.
Much nicer than zig-zagging inside a valley, at least to me.